The Gender Pay Gap in Speaking and Sports, with Parity CEO Leela Srinivasan

SHOW NOTES

[02:38] Closing the gender pay gap in sports.

[08:09] How Parity helps female athletes get opportunities.

[11:18] Importance of data and storytelling in speaking career.

[15:07] Don’t believe the headlines: Progress in women’s pay is misleading.

[21:32] Pay transparency and representation to navigate negotiations and create more opportunities.

[24:59] How you can support female athletes and speakers.

[27:57] Life-changing experience in Africa.

Amplify with Jess is produced by Earfluence, and brought to you by Mic Drop Workshop.

TRANSCRIPT

Leela Srinivasan – 00:00:01:

The research found that men on average earn 21 times the playing salary of women athletes. But because of that, it found that women athletes are two times more dependent on sponsorships, endorsements and other forms of income opportunity. When we look at the Parity network, in fact, over 300 of our athletes describe themselves as having some sort of side hustle or small business on the side in order to support their livelihood, basically.

Jess Ekstrom – 00:00:33:

Welcome to Amplify with Jess Ekstrom, a show designed to help women get out of their head and into their zone of influence. Hello, everyone, welcome back. I am so excited for today’s guest. You are absolutely going to love her. I know I’ve already learned a ton about her and women in sports and the pay gap. And we talk a lot about the pay gap in speaking and events, but I also want to talk about it in sports and just industries across the world. But first, before I bring Leela in, I want to talk about how I discovered the pay gap in speaking and what led me to start Mic Drop Workshop. So years ago, I was speaking at an event, and this was right when I was getting started in the corporate landscape. I got my start speaking mostly at colleges. And I spoke at this event, and I thought it went really well. I was like the lunchtime keynote speaker. I got home. I was like, job well done. And I got a call from the meeting planner a few weeks after I spoke. And when she called me, she sounded kind of somber on the phone. And I was like, oh my gosh, what did I do? Did I not do as good of a job as I thought? And she said, I want to keep this call, quote unquote, confidential. So I’m not using her name or the company name. But I wanted to let you know some interesting knowledge that I just found out. I wanted to let you know that we did audience review cards after the conference and your keynote ranked the highest amongst all of our keynotes for that weekend. And I was like, great, what’s the issue? She was like, we paid you $8,500 to come speak. We paid our morning mail keynote $50,000 to come speak. I was like, I didn’t even know that that was something that was even in the realm of possibility as a speaker. And granted, after thinking about this for years, it’s not his fault that he got paid $50,000 to come speak. It’s what he asked for. But there wasn’t a lot of pay transparency that I was looking at at that time and knowing what speakers were getting paid. And so at that moment, not only did I, and she was basically end statement, you need to raise your rates. You’re not charging what you’re worth. And so I dedicated from that moment forward of how do I help women get paid what they’re worth to speak because men are getting paid. Three times as much as women. So that year I started Mic Drop Workshop with the intent of helping women become professional speakers and start getting paid what men are getting paid. And not only in speaking, but I have become super interested in like, how can we promote pay transparency? Because if we can show what other people are getting paid, then it knows, it shows what we can ask for. And so that is why I’m so excited to bring Leela Srinivasan in, CEO of Parity. And she’s going to talk to us about what’s going on at Parity. They represent women athletes and getting brand deals and basically all other. Revenue generating ways that are not through their sport. And one of the things that I learned is that only 0.5% of global sports sponsorship dollars are invested in women’s sports. 0.5%, Leela, that’s crazy.

Leela – 00:03:57:

It is crazy, Jess. Thanks so much for inviting me to chat today. And I’m glad you share my sense of outrage about the current situation. And it’s also fantastic that people like you are out there lobbying to make sure that all women get what they deserve when they’re in the spotlight and sharing their incredible stories.

Jess – 00:04:15:

Now, you have an extensive career before Parity. You’re on the board of Upwork. You’ve done so many amazing things. Was the pay gap for women before Parity in sports something that was on your mind? What’s your origin story been like to get to where you are today?

Leela – 00:04:33:

Sure. Well, to be honest, I think we all know on some level that women have fewer opportunities in sports and are paid less than men. I won’t say in full candor that this was my shining beacon and North Star before I landed at Parity. To your point, I’d spent a corporate career mostly in marketing, in tech companies and also in management consulting and sales. And over the course of that career, I was certainly very conscious of diversity, equity, inclusion. And I had the fortune of working for a series of tech companies that actually were doing it right. And I’ll cite SurveyMonkey as an example where we ran a regular gender pay study to make sure that we weren’t facing a gap.

Jess – 00:05:16:

Interesting.

Leela – 00:05:17:

Yeah. And it’s one of those things where sometimes you’ll see in the headlines, well-known company will run a study and then they will proudly announce that they’ve adjusted salaries for a bunch of people because they found a gap. And that’s sort of bad news. It’s like-

Jess – 00:05:31:

Right.

Leela – 00:05:32:

You’re doing something about it. Oh, you’ve had them all along. So, you know, that’s not great. Fortunately, SurveyMonkey was not in that position and we did repeatedly run these studies to make sure that we didn’t have a gap. But I was also very conscious of the fact that we were not the typical tech company. And when I moved into FinTech, I found that there was a real gap across the entire sector. Gender pay gap, absolutely something being aware of. But it was really only when I was introduced to Parity that I grew aware of. Just how large that gap is in sports.

Jess – 00:06:04:

The irony around the celebration of closing the gap is funny because there are companies that are like, look at us. You know, I have to tell you, I actually think I told you this when we met for coffee the first time that there, you know, I follow some, you know, venture capital firms, which, you know, access to funding for women owned businesses is a whole other story. But one of the firms that I follow on LinkedIn is posted a photo and like an announcement and an article like PR press release that they hired a woman. And it was like, welcome the first woman to XYZ Venture Capital Firm. And I was like, did someone approve this? I mean, what are we supposed to do? Like, congratulations, it’s 2023 and you just hired a woman, like round of applause. I mean, you’re right, the- The celebration around fixing it is tough because you almost want it to not even be noticed. Like calling it women athletes, women speakers, like female comedians, female doctors. I mean, it’s like you’re not calling like, look at that male doctor over there. It’s like, no, women CEOs. And so sometimes I have a conflict around internally, obviously. I exist and you exist in our companies to help women, but I almost feel like the goal is to not be needed anymore. Would you agree?

Leela – 00:07:37:

Absolutely. I would love nothing more than overtime for Parity and the work that we do to be irrelevant because the problem is solved. But, you know, let’s just say I do have a reasonable degree of job security right now. There’s so much to do in this space. It’s crazy.

Jess – 00:07:52:

Well, and also the irony with you right now is that women’s sports this year have had a historic year. I mean, you have US Women’s World Cup and so many the rise of Olympics coming up, like so many amazing things. Yet there’s still the issue of women getting the same profiles as men. And just to be clear for those listening or watching, Parity, I mean, they work to help women athletes get paid outside of their sport. I mean, you see LeBron James and Gatorade commercials, Steph Curry, like Aaron Rodgers in representing every brand imaginable. And there are so many amazing women athletes with incredible stories that make great speakers, make great music, make great music. They make great brand advocates, can do a compelling social media campaign. And just because they might not be the top, you know, .001 percent like Serena Williams doesn’t mean they don’t deserve these opportunities. So maybe can you shed some light on some of the athletes that you represent and maybe some fun things going on with them and give us an example of what’s possible?

Leela – 00:08:59:

Absolutely. So, and again, thank you for highlighting the problem so eloquently, Jess. But Parity was founded with a mission to close the gender income and opportunity gap in pro sports. And as you said, Parity is all about helping our network of now close to 900 athletes across 70 different sports. So it’s not just basketball and soccer and tennis and the ones you think about, it’s everything from archery to lifting, which is super exciting. But we’re helping those women find ways to generate income and be able to, frankly, exist and put enough time into their sports to be truly excellent. There was some research published recently by Wasserman and RBC together that I think highlights the challenge. So their research admittedly focused on a pretty narrow range of sports, so tennis, soccer, golf and basketball. But the research found that men on average earn 21 times the playing salary of women athletes.

Jess – 00:09:53:

Oh, and this is what they’re getting paid to do their sport.

Leela – 00:09:56:

This is what they’re getting paid to do their sport, right? But because of that, it found that women athletes are two times more dependent on sponsorships, endorsements and other forms of income opportunity in order to make a living. So it really highlights how important it is for women to find like their side hustle, their gig. And, you know, when we look at the Parity network, in fact, over 300 of our athletes describe themselves as having some sort of side hustle or small business on the side in order to support their life. So, you know, in terms of the types of thing that we do, we work with brands large and small. So ranging from Microsoft, Morgan Stanley, Strava, those types of brands into very niche brands that have a strong affinity with athletes, whether it’s in wellness, health care, beauty, nutrition, apparel, all sorts of different categories where they can see how athletes would have a very authentic connection to the product.

Jess – 00:10:54:

I love that.

Leela – 00:10:55:

Yeah. I mean, as you know, authenticity in speaking, in marketing, it’s everything.

Jess – 00:10:59:

It’s everything. It’s everything. I almost think, you know, the, of course it is great to see, you know, I keep going back to Serena Williams because she’s one of the biggest athletes in the world, but it is, I think to me, even more enticing to see, like, I want to see a woman bobsledder or, you know. Pro bass fisher or whatever it might be. In fact, you know, I graduated from NC State and of course the, my husband played football and you know, all of the hype is around football and basketball. But I recently learned like a few years ago, we had like the number one women’s rifle reteam in America. And it was like, where is the billboard for that? You know, where are the ticket sales for that? And it’s just crazy to me that the exposure that a lot of the male dominated sports get even on the collegiate level. And then of course that transfers to the professional level, but I think you’re right. Authenticity in our story is what makes us relatable, approachable, and great faces for brands and speaking. You also have a speaking career for yourself where you’ve started sharing the story of Parity and also different topics around, you know, marketing brands and all of that. Can you share a little bit about your speaking career and either, how that’s helped grow Parity or what you hope to achieve when you go and speak somewhere?

Leela – 00:12:23:

Absolutely. Well, first, I hope it will grow Parity because I think part of what we are doing this year is just trying to raise awareness of the problem and the fact that we are a direct conduit to athletes across every sport. So my hope is over time I’m able to get that message out more consistently to broader audiences through speaking. I have had the opportunity to do a lot of speaking in my time in all sorts of different places. And I think for me, I grew up a theater kid, so that definitely helped. And I encourage every kid to take acting classes or get involved in theater somehow, because I really think whether it’s in the boardroom or on stage, it’s helped me enormously in just having the confidence to speak and to make an argument, get a point across, engage a crowd, all of those things. So that’s, you know, tip one’s make sure your kids are enrolled in acting classes.

Jess – 00:13:13:

Yes, we actually don’t mean to interrupt you, but I couldn’t agree more that that is such a transferable skill. Yeah.

Leela – 00:13:21:

Yeah, I mean, it’s been a source of importance, I think, for me as a marketing leader at a lot of these companies where when you’re when you’re CMO or head of marketing, you often are, you know, you can be the face, the voice, the message bearer, I guess, for the company in so many different ways. And so I’ve had a lot of fun with it, quite frankly. And I think the key is, to me has just been finding a topic, an angle, a storyline where I feel like some combination of me as a speaker and the company that I’m representing at the time has something interesting to say. And just continuing to hone that topic, bringing in data points wherever possible, because, you know, it’s one thing for me to say, okay, women are grossly underpaid in sports. It makes a completely different. It makes. It makes the point a different way. If I can say, you know what, look at the look at the all-star games this year. WNBA all-star players earned two and a half percent of what NBA all-star players earned. So just a data point can really just bring the message home in a different way. So finding the story, the data to support the story, and then weaving in personal stories that can help bring that topic to life are all aspects, I guess, of what I’ve turned to in my corporate speaking career.

Jess – 00:14:32:

I love that. I mean, the data point, I feel like is so key at the beginning of a talk because what it does is it shuts down any skeptics in the room. It’s not just Leela’s opinion or Jess’s opinion on what should happen. It’s like, these are the facts. Now let me tell you the story about myself and then how we can change that. So the data points, especially, I mean, and maybe I’m biased, but the data points when it comes to women’s pay are usually really hard to believe when you see them for the first time. You’re like, that can’t be right. Because I think there’s a lot of noise and vocalness around women’s pay. So it’s easy to confuse that with progress. When progress is the data. Not the headlines.

Leela – 00:15:16:

Yeah, I think that’s right. And also to your earlier point, when you think sports, you think Serena, you think Megan Rapinoe or Alex Morgan, you think about the stars. And while there’s still a pretty astronomical gap in some cases between them and the top male earners, they’re earning very well and they deserve a very penny. So it’s easy to just kind of get lulled into the Serena sense of security almost when there’s this whole, you know, this universe of athletes. I like to think we’re for the 98% of pro women. Athletes that you don’t know on a first name basis, unless you’re really, really deep in a sport.

Jess – 00:15:49:

Well, it’s crazy to me that you can be the best in the world at something and wonder how you’re going to pay rent, which is the reality for so many women athletes. Would you agree?

Leela – 00:15:59:

Absolutely. I was talking recently with someone who is number one in their sport, which happens to be one of the sailing classes. And we talked about, you know, we talked in general about the types of sponsorship opportunity and the amounts that we were talking about. And the amounts were relatively modest in the scheme of things. And this woman athlete admitted that any amount of any sort would be life changing for them. I absolutely agree with the point. It’s just crazy to think that women can be at the very top of their sport and still be scrambling around and trying to entrepreneurially. You know, put their living together somehow.

Jess – 00:16:39:

And when you think about kids and what they want to aspire to be, I mean, you have to be able to see the path from A to B. And how will sports that maybe aren’t the tennis, the basketball, the things that are getting airtime survive if kids can’t be able to turn on the TV and idolize a woman athlete? I mean, it goes back to, I give this example all the time. When you’re in kindergarten and you’re a girl in class and you’re seeing all of the presidents, and so you start to believe, well, only a man can be president. And it’s the same with exposure for athletes. If every commercial and billboard that you see is for certain kinds of sports and for men, then as young girls, you start to believe that that’s only something men can do.

Leela – 00:17:28:

Absolutely. And I think this is where hiring women athletes as speakers is a tremendous opportunity for society at large. But also, you know, if you’re if you’re organizing an event or a conference and you’re looking for real leaders to get up and tell stories of grit and resilience and highs and lows, then, you know, if we have 900 women athletes on our platform, we have 900 different stories waiting to be told. And every athlete I’ve ever met that’s involved with Parity, I’ve just been so moved by their personal story because nothing comes easily to this crew. They’ve all had to fight for their current position and they’ve had to fight to be excellent. They’ve had to overcome all manner of adversity. And, you know, as someone who’s put on conferences as a marketing leader, I can see exactly how that will just really ignite and inspire an audience.

Jess – 00:18:16:

I will watch any sports or athlete documentary or read any book or memoir because you’re right. You get the full breadth and the full palette of life experience in one journey of like getting to the championship or getting to the Olympics. It’s like. No one has a linear line in sports. And I would argue that no one has a linear line in whatever they do, but especially with sports, when it’s so public, the wins and the losses, it just makes for such a compelling and authentic story that makes great speaking. But one of the things that I would love to get your opinion on too, is I feel like sometimes, especially this year, let’s say with the Women’s World Cup and we’re in the year of the chic economy, we have Women’s World Cup, we have Taylor Swift’s Eras tour, we have the Barbie movie and all of this. But I felt like with the Women’s World Cup, the scandal of Spain’s head coach and Jenni Hermoso, it was more attractive for headlines to focus on that than the success of the women athletes. And, I just feel like that is such a slap in the face. Of course, that was something that needed to be addressed, but it was like, then that’s the story. And I don’t know if that angered you as much as it angered me. I didn’t feel like it got the talent of the athletes didn’t get the airtime as much as that one story.

Leela – 00:19:44:

A hundred percent. And, you know, I have so many. I have so many feelings when you start talking about World Cup because it’s such a pinnacle of the sporting calendar, not the women’s calendar, the sporting calendar. And there were so many great performances there. I mean, so many matches I watched where, I mean, the standard was incredible. There were also, of course, stories leading up to the World Cup around pay inequity. I think it was the Jamaican national team that had to basically launch a GoFundMe or a crowd raising platform in order to even be able to afford to go.

Jess – 00:20:16:

Are you serious?

Leela – 00:20:17:

Yes.

Jess – 00:20:168:

Oh, my God.

Leela – 00:20:19:

There’s no money in the sport for them in Jamaica. So and there were other examples like that. I know a number of women’s teams use the moment, harness that attention basically to spotlight some of the inequities in their own area. So these conversations have to surface at times like this. I do agree, though. I do think that the turn of events really, unfortunately, overshadowed the play, which was incredible. And that it just points to the systemic issues in sports that still need to be fixed. And this is not specific to soccer, although a lot of things were highlighted around the Spanish team in particular. But, yeah, there’s a whole world of problems waiting to be solved as it relates to women’s sports.

Jess – 00:21:01:

And, you know, you bring up systemic issues in sports, but one thing I’m curious your take on is the systemic issue with like these brand deals that we’re talking about and pay gap and speaking.

Leela – 00:21:13:

Yeah.

Jess – 00:21:14:

What do you think if you could, because I think about this all the time, you know, when it comes to speaking. There’s so many different variables. There’s like the decision makers, you know, who is selecting the speakers or who is making the decision for who’s going to be the face of our new shoes. There’s what women are asking for, you know, do they not have enough pay transparency to know how much they can ask for, or, you know, they need representation like Parity to be able to help them navigate that. Cause I know from personal experience, like a brand reaches out to me and I’m like, Oh, just buy me a sandwich and I’ll, you know, create a video for you. It’s, it’s really hard to know what to even ask for, or is it even the exposure and knowledge that knowing these 900 women that you represent exist. I guess if you can point to something, what are the systemic things that we can change on the other end to help create more opportunity for women athletes and also just women who want to speak on a TED Talks stage?

Leela – 00:22:19:

Absolutely. Well, I think earlier, Jess, you referenced the fact that just seeing women play sports is an important contributor to making sure that their star rises. And much has been made of the fact that something like 5% only of media coverage is focused on women’s sports. I do think that’s changing. We’ve seen not only pro sports more in the spotlight this year, but college sports as well. I mean, think back to the women’s NCAA final and just how exciting it was to see Caitlin Clark and co digging it out. The Nebraska volleyball game that happened over the year where there were 92,000 people in the stadium.

Jess – 00:22:54:

Amazing. That photo gave me chills of that stadium.

Leela – 00:22:57:

Absolutely. So I firmly believe that, this is not just a moment for women’s sports. This is a movement that is gathering momentum. And so the more that women’s sports is visible, the more that people can tune in, get to know athletes and so forth, the better. I also do think that social media has been a boost to this audience because a lot of the campaigns that we run are social based. And women athletes have tremendous followings on social. Sometimes that is, you know, that they have a large following, but more often it’s that they have a smaller but incredibly engaged following.

Jess – 00:23:29:

Yes, yes. We’ve learned… And that you and I have talked about it with our partnership with the WNBA at Headbands of Hope. It’s like a lot of the fans of the WNBA don’t follow teams. They follow specific athletes and no matter what team that they’re there for. And so that’s amazing to see an athlete have that kind of influence and power, whether their following is 5,000 people or 500,000, it’s still an engaged group. One thing that before we close, I wanted to ask you that I’m curious about, not only with… How… What your process is at Parity for negotiations and brand deals, but like you’ve had such an incredible career, like one of the first employees at LinkedIn. I mean, obviously you have done amazing things. You’ve had to be in a position where you’ve had to ask for things. You’ve had to ask for money. You’ve had to ask for salary. Of course, you’re helping your athletes do that now, but you’ve had to do it yourself. What advice would you have for women who are watching that are in that position, whether it’s asking for a speaking fee, asking for a raise at work, noticing a pay discrepancy between them and a male counterpart? Do you have any tips on how to navigate that conversation around money?

Leela – 00:24:45:

Yeah, I’ll share. I mean, from a Parity perspective, when we are talking with a client, we focus first on first of all, what’s the brand’s budget? Not what is a speaker paid. And we do try and negotiate the best possible rates to help our athletes, knowing that for them, you know, the story I shared earlier about the sailor. The sad reality is today, maybe anything is meaningful if we can get it for them. But we hope over time, these rates continue to go up and up. From a personal perspective, I think back to… My first… Like real promotion, I would say in business where. And the moment when I got promoted from an individual contributor to a people manager for the first time, it was as simple as letting my boss know that people management was something I was really interested in. And it didn’t have to be tomorrow. And I think this is where sometimes less experienced employees want too much too soon. I do firmly believe you have to work hard and earn your stripes. If you’re working hard and you’re showing the signs and you are transparent about what your dreams are, what your aspirations are, then all you’re doing really is planting a seed in your boss’s mind. He called me two months later when a role opened up to say, hey, I remember you saying that you were interested in people management. We’re hiring a leader for our Boston office. Would you be willing to move and would you like to talk about it? So if I hadn’t said something, I don’t think it would have happened because he just wouldn’t have put me in the consideration set.

Jess – 00:26:11:

Yes, plant the seed. And I think one reality that the sooner you recognize it, the better off you’ll be is the realization that people aren’t thinking about you. Realizing no one’s like, how can I make Jess’s life better today? Or how can I promote Leela? I mean, of course, in some great leadership and rare situations that happens, but to be able to say, hey, this is… Like you said, Leela. Like you said, very importantly, it doesn’t need to happen now, but this is where I want to be. I mean, that’s fantastic advice. I do want to close with hearing about your Kilimanjaro journey, because I know that that’s something that you just did. And that was on my bucket list for a while, admittedly, with a seven-month-old. I’m not sure if it’s going to happen in the near future, but tell me about your expedition that you just did.

Leela – 00:27:06:

Absolutely. So this was a long time coming, Jess. In fact, this trip was supposed to happen. Let me think. Back in 20… Actually, it was 2009. And instead, that year, I got pregnant. So I missed out earlier in my life.

Jess – 00:27:20:

Okay. So we’re on the same page, yeah. Babies cramping our style over here.

Leela – 00:27:26:

Yeah, they’ve made up for it since. But what people don’t know about Kilimanjaro necessarily is, you know, it’s a challenge, but it’s not a technical hike. So it’s a great hike for someone who is basically fit, but isn’t a technical climber. And this was something I’d been wanting to do for the last, you know, 15 years or so. I talked my friend into it for a milestone birthday. I had some concerns going in mainly about the altitude. And I was carrying a knee injury at the time. Was I going to be able to make it? It was extraordinary. It was a life changing experience, I would say. So I highly recommend it for you. Once you’re a little bit further down the road and parenting, the scenery was remarkable. I think just being in Africa and absorbing the wonders of Africa, the kindness of the people, just understanding ways of life over there. I mean, it’s just it really makes you stop and think about life in general. And while I probably won’t go climb another mountain anytime soon, it’s really. I think increased my hunger for just having different life experiences where I get to get to connect with different sorts of people from different walks of life who just whose lives are completely different. So it was I’ll send you all the pictures. It was phenomenal. I made it. My knee made it intact. And, it highly enough.

Jess – 00:28:41:

I can’t wait to hear that in your speeches one day. I’m sure that that’s going to make an appearance. So for those of you watching, listening, definitely follow and connect with Leela on LinkedIn. Check out Parity. If you are a meeting planner, please consider hiring a woman athlete for your next event. They make incredible speakers. Reach out to Parity to help facilitate that. But I will say, even if you’re not a meeting planner and you’re not a brand looking for women athletes to endorse, you can shop at Parity Locker, which I have been trolling. Leela, can you tell us about Parity Locker? Because I’m so excited about it.

Leela – 00:29:19:

Absolutely. That’s wonderful. So we just launched Parity Locker a couple of weeks ago, and this is another attempt to help women as entrepreneurs within the sports domain. So it is a site that is focused on helping pro women athletes put their game worn gear and other memorabilia up for auction to fans. They are typically going to sign that, put personal messaging on it. You know, it’s coming straight from the athlete. So it’s authentic. You know, you’re supporting your favorite athletes. And this is a chance really for anyone to go and buy a piece of sporting history. So check it out, locker.paritynow.co.

Jess – 00:29:53:

Leela, thank you so much for being here. Also, big shout out to Earfluence, our recording and production partner, for helping run this show. Check them out at earfluence.com. They build brands through podcasts. Leela, I appreciate your friendship. I appreciate all that you are doing for women. And I can’t wait to see you soon.

Leela – 00:30:13:

Thank you, Jess. Likewise. Great talking.

Jess – 00:30:18:

Thanks for listening to Amplify. If you are a fan of the show, show us some podcast love by giving us a rating and review. And give us a follow at Mic Drop Workshop and at Jess Ekstrom. This episode was edited and produced by Earfluence and I’m Jess Ekstrom, your host. Remember that you deserve the biggest stage. So let’s find out how to get you there. I’ll see you again soon.