Negotiation Tips to Get Paid What You’re Worth (And Maybe More), with Meggie Palmer

SHOW NOTES

Amplify with Jess is produced by Earfluence, and brought to you by Mic Drop Workshop.

TRANSCRIPT

Meggie Palmer – 00:00:01:

Actually, sometimes being a bit more of a scarce resource, Jess is fully booked until April 2024. Sometimes people are like, oh, my gosh, I got FOMO. Like, get me, well, I want to lock you in for 2025. You know, so sometimes actually creating FOMO can be very powerful as a tactic psychologically for clients. I’m not in the business of lying, but instead of saying Maggie’s on maternity leave, we just said, like, Maggie’s next availability will be October. We would love to book you in at that point.

Jess Ekstrom – 00:00:33:

Welcome to Amplify with Jess Ekstrom, a show designed to help women get out of their head and into their zone of influence.

Jess – 00:00:40:

Okay, so what should you charge as a speaker? Or an even bigger question, what do you feel like you’re financially worth as a speaker or whatever job that you’re doing? This was something I struggled with for years. In fact, I would negotiate against myself. I would be like, hey, don’t worry about it. Just buy me some dinner and let’s call it a day. Even when they were offering to pay me, I turned it down. Negotiation was such a tricky mental gymnastics for me because I thought it meant conflict. But our guest today, Meggie Palmer, taught me that negotiation is just a conversation trying to reach an outcome. Meggie Palmer is the founder of PepTalkHer, which works with brands to empower women to achieve global income equality. Before she was a founder, Meggie Palmer was a journalist.

Meggie – 00:01:27:

I was a journalist for a long time, found out I was getting underpaid compared to the male colleagues who sat next to me in the newsroom.I thought it was a mistake.

So I said something because that’s what I was ready to do. You see something, say something. And it didn’t go well. Let’s put it that way, Jess. It was not well received. And so I guess for me, that was kind of like the blinkers off moment where I was like, oh, all right, Meggie Palmer, welcome to the real world. This is what happens. There’s this thing called unconscious and conscious bias and discrimination when it comes to pay. And we know that the gender pay gap sucks for everyone. And it’s even worse for women of color. And I think it’s really important to acknowledge that. And that’s something that I just think is really unfair. I don’t think it’s right. I don’t think it’s just it’s illegal. And yet it’s still it’s still happening. And so it’s our mission to really shift to shift that gap at the pay level and then also at that leadership level as well.

Jess – 00:02:13:

Yeah. And isn’t, I mean, I feel like I read something recently about like, one, the pandemic set us back because women became, had a whole other role of managing their households, which you and I talked about a lot being new moms and also being business owners. And now we’re looking at, didn’t they say 200 years until equal pay?

Meggie – 00:02:36:

United Nations have done some modeling around equality. It’s sort of between one to 200 years.

Jess – 00:02:40:

It’s a little bit between that. Yeah.

Meggie – 00:02:44:

Some Western countries, but, you know, it’s not great. Basically, certainly not in our professional lifetime. Maybe, maybe not. Maybe when our kids are 100, I don’t know. Fingers crossed, fingers crossed.

Jess – 00:02:56:

But it’s kind of true, I think.

Meggie – 00:02:57:

And I think a lot of speakers are speaking because they are frustrated or they see a problem and they see a solution to that. It’s kind of the same with a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners, right? People go into business oftentimes because they identify a problem that they think that they can solve through their business, their technology or their solution, right? And I think the gender pay gap is a really intractable problem that, you know, we need government levers, we need business levers, but I also believe that there is a grassroots movement that can create some ripples of change and that’s really where we’re trying to create that conversation and that awareness so that other folks are not shocked like I was when they found out that they’re getting underpaid and when they get pushback when they say, well, hang on, what’s going on here? Yeah.

Jess – 00:03:40:

Yeah. I mean, you and I have very similar stories, which also makes me believe that so many women do where like why I started Mic Drop Workshop was realizing that I spoke in an event, got paid $8,500, got, you know, the audience feedback, the event planner called me, said I ranked the highest amongst all the speakers and their morning mail keynote was paid $50,000. And I was like, you know, just like you, I had a moment, oh, there must’ve been a mistake. You know, there must’ve been something that was like, but I will also say I didn’t ask for $50,000. And so, because I didn’t have that transparency or the information of what people were getting paid. And that’s like, I know why you started Pep Talk Her, why I started Mic Drop Workshop is like, you don’t know what you don’t know. And so how do you even know what to ask to get paid for? And Shelia had a great question. I’m just like, let’s go back to the grassroots. How do you even get started? Let’s first start, because both you and I… We’re speakers. We’re speakers. Maybe share what your first speaking opportunity was and maybe a tip for just like, how do we get started speaking? And then also asking for pay. I’ll let you go first or I can, whatever you want to do.

Meggie – 00:04:52:

I’m trying to reflect. I mean, you know, I wasn’t a kid that always did speech and drama and I loved acting and all that kind of stuff and public speaking from a really young age. But I think, I think if I reflect, I reckon my first like official, like non-high school speaking gig was when I was a baby junior journalist on the Gold Coast in Australia before I moved to Europe or the US. And it was for a charity. It was a friend of mine. She ran the events for a charity. I forget if it might’ve been the multiple sclerosis . And she was like, could you come and emcee this event? Basically, could you come? You’re a journalist, people like, you know, you work for a big network. Could you, could you come and do it? And I was like quite nervous, right? Because I knew how to do it, but also like, it’s a big deal and there’s people and there’s like, you know, people have donated all this money to be there and stuff. So I think a great way to get started is to just like do something. And often if you’re like, well, I don’t know who’s going to pay me, or I don’t know who my audience is, a great place to start is charities and not-for-profits, right? Because they’re often looking for folks to speak to their employees, maybe just speak to some of their team members or to support as an auctioneer, as an emcee, as a, you know, quick keynote before an event or a luncheon or a gala or something like that. So charities can be a really great way to start. And again, if you’re passionate about a certain charity, or if you have a friend who works somewhere, it’s a great way to kind of get your foot in the door, you know? So don’t be offended if your first gig is not keynoting for the Google offsite, you know, that’s okay. It might take you a few years to get there. So I would really start small, start local. That’s, that would be my advice.

Jess – 00:06:24:

Yeah, absolutely. We call that in Mic Drop Workshop, like closest to cash. What are like the people that you already know? What’s your alma mater? Like, where did you go to high school, college? They’re always looking to bring back alumni speakers, your chamber of commerce, always looking for schools, local associations. So those are, I feel like also answering, answering this question of just like, where are those gigs? And how can I find them? But as far as like, where to start, you know, one of the things that I like to say, that I did wrong was, I just started with saying, I’m a speaker, bring me to speak, instead of saying, here’s the problem that I solved. Do you have that problem? And so I think that’s figuring out, what’s the thing that I want to be known for? And then crafting your speaker statement. So we do this in Mic Drop Workshop. It’s like, hi, my name is Jess, and I help audiences blank by speaking about blank. That is like the one sentence you don’t need a whole, like even like a keynote built at this point to start doing that. Like what’s the thing that you help audiences do and how do you do it? So just by starting with that speaker statement and that’s how you reach out to those closest to cash opportunities is a great place to get started. But now let’s talk about the money side of it. So like, great. They’re interested. We let, we have a conference in October, Meggie Palmer, you would be perfect. We have a pamphlet that we can put your name in. And like, I literally just got an email like that this morning. And it’s like, Oh, we have some great exposure opportunities for you. No budget or they’re not offering a budget. Yeah. What do you do in this situation?

Meggie – 00:08:11:

So I think it really depends. So there’s probably, depending on the audience, in many cases you and I would say no to that opportunity because we value our time and our impact that we make on audiences and so for that reason we don’t offer to speak for free. However, it’s just the start of a conversation. And I will say, Jess, like I think there are some folks who are starting out who may actually want to have some of these opportunities even if there is no compensation involved, right, because for them they might get photos or videos or the LinkedIn shout-out by that organisation might be really valuable, right, because you might be starting to build a brand and a business and you might get video footage of you on stage. Like that’s really valuable because typically you’d pay, I don’t know, $2,000 to $10,000 for a camera operator to support you to create that for your showreel, right? Yeah. Um, The first conversation is just the first conversation. And we talk a lot about this at Pep Talker in our programming, like a negotiation doesn’t have to be combative. It doesn’t have to be a fight or stressful. It’s just a conversation. That’s it. That’s all negotiation is, right? It’s just a conversation with a very specific goal of finding an outcome. And so if you’re asked to come and speak at this conference and they don’t mention compensation, you are 100 million percent within your right to say, hey, that sounds super exciting. I’m so thrilled that you thought of me. I’d love to understand the budget that you’re working to. And then they might be like, oh, yo, you missed the memo. There’s no budget. Or they might be like, cool, cool. So we typically pay $5,000 or we pay an honorarium of $250 or we cover flights and accommodation or we give you flight credits or whatever it is. Sometimes there’s in-kind support, right? Like sometimes airlines have paid me in business class flight credit. So there’s all sorts of different things. Compensation doesn’t have to always look like money, right? You might want that exposure in a pamphlet. Maybe you potentially could think of nothing worse because it’s a pamphlet going to the totally wrong audience. You know, there’s an organization of folks who work in HR that we work quite closely with and I think you do as well, Jess. And often their budgets are not what my corporate clients are paying. And I will still quite happily work with them because it’s a very targeted audience that I want to support and I want to build relationships with. And I know that if I do a speech for 300, 3,000 people, inevitably 10% of those folks will reach out to me afterwards on LinkedIn and I’ll build a relationship. And hopefully we’ll be able to support them with our leadership programs or workshops. So sometimes it’s about playing the long game too. It’s not just about like, well, I want to get paid this month. It’s like, okay, I do want to get paid this month. Maybe not on the cards so what could this look like over six months or three months or whatever

Jess – 00:10:48:

Yeah. And I think that this is a really great exercise for anyone who’s watching or listening is almost just taking out a sheet of paper, writing down the things that are non-monetary compensation that are important to you. So in Mic Drop Workshop, we call this a scorecard. And so I have like a scorecard that is what I’ve written that is important to me. Footage, when you’re getting started as a speaker, having footage of you speaking is super important. If an event has a great stage, high quality videographers, and oftentimes you can figure that out going on their past event websites, Footage is a great thing to put in your contract. Photos of you speaking. Testimonials, that’s another form of currency, like talking about, hey, would you mind sharing a couple sentences after the event of what you thought? Referrals, that’s another one that I think a lot of people don’t utilize in speaking, which can take one event and turn it into five different events. After you hear me speak, if you’re satisfied, I would love five different email introductions. And then also just, is it for an event or a company that will elevate your profile? Is it something that you can say, hey, I spoke here and now I know that I have this logo that I can put on my website that I can then go use? Also not to discount, just like, is it a cool place that I wanna go or visit? And can I negotiate an extra airline ticket and bring my friend or my partner? There’s all these different levers that you can pull, but you have to know what are the ones that are important to you to get started.

Meggie – 00:12:27:

Yeah, I mean, I did a gig in Sarasota a couple of years ago. I’d never been to Sarasota and the hotel was really cool. And they were like, we’ll give you three nights accommodation. I was like, yeah, I could get on board with going to Florida. Let’s do it. And so that was kind of where I lay by the pool for 24 hours. It was great after I’d done my speech. But the other thing that you mentioned that’s really interesting is also like audiences are really valuable too. Even if you’re not getting a check to be paid to speak, you’re speaking in front of 200, 2,000, 10,000 folks virtually or in person. That’s a lot of eyeballs. And so that’s kind of cool. And you might be like, oh, they’ll all follow me on Instagram. They’ll follow me on LinkedIn. They probably won’t. You have to make it very easy for them to do that. So always having a really clear scannable QR code on your deck is valuable because then people can just like grab out their cell phone, scan it, and then stay connected to you. And also having a call to action. So is there a URL that you send them to a link where they can get the download to your slides? Or is there a freebie or a cheat sheet or some swipe copy? That you give people access to? Maybe let’s say for me, we talk a lot about negotiation, understanding your value. We do a lot of work with employee resource groups. So we always have a URL called peptalker.com forward slash imposter. For example, when we’re doing a program on imposter syndrome. And so then the people who are really invested in the content and who really want to learn more will download that. And now I have their email address. Which is not to say that I’m going to spam them, but now I can build a relationship with them beyond that one hour session or that three hour workshop or that two day event, whatever, because I can offer them other free resources. I can point them towards our app, which is totally free, which helps you track your career successes. I can offer them to join our mastermind community or our paid programs, our paid group coaching programs, or our executive coaching, which is valuable to them if that’s what they need in that moment. Right. So it becomes very symbiotic. And so being very strategic, if you are taking a job that is for less than your rate or is for free, that’s fine. You have to do the mental gymnastics though, to be really strategic and how you can create value from that audience.

Jess – 00:14:34:

Totally. And by having those things laid out prior, it’s really helpful for when you’re in that moment. And one of the tips that you give when you come and speak at LIVE 10-week Mic Drop Academy that I literally take with me in every, every negotiation that I ever do. And also I want to Zoom out for a second because we kind of breezed over this when you said a negotiation is just a conversation to reach an outcome. That is like, I need that on my wall in my office because anytime I felt like I was to negotiate or say, no, I won’t do this for that, but I’ll do it for this. I felt this like tension and I felt like, and it was only tension that I was creating. It really wasn’t tension in the moment. And so it’s like, you realize that there’s no need for boxing gloves when you’re just trying to have a conversation to reach an outcome. That’s it. Which I love. I’m just like, I just need to highlight that for, for a second. But one of the things that I think about all the time is your three that you teach, your wish, your want, and your walk number. And this, I think all goes under the tip and the belief that you have of like knowing your value before you enter the negotiation and knowing the things that are important to you. That way you’re not put on the spot and you’re like, Oh, I don’t know if I should do it for this amount. So can you talk to US about those three , what they mean and how we can use them?

Meggie – 00:16:07:

Yeah, and to your point just earlier about, like, taking the boxing gloves off, I think that’s a really good analogy because we’re taught and conditioned often from a really young age that negotiation is scary and it’s anxiety-inducing and it’s, like, stressful. But if we get real about it, it’s just, like, someone wants you to speak, you’re either going to say yes or no. It’s fine. Like, the world’s not going to stop spinning. You know, like, let’s be real. Our work is great. We love it. We make an impact in the world, and that’s awesome. And we are not doing brain surgery, like, to be clear. So, like, really, what is the worst-case scenario that could possibly happen from this negotiation? They say no. They say, you know what, we can’t afford you. Or they say maybe this isn’t the best cultural fit. Like, that is the absolute million-percent worst-case scenario, which honestly is not that bad, right? And so with any negotiation, the thing is you’re going to feel much more confident, much more calm if you are prepared ahead of time. And that’s where for any speaker, whether you’re early in your career or whether you’re super advanced, you don’t want to just like walk into that meeting or that virtual Zoom room without any preparation, right? Because you want to know like how many employees does this company have? Like this chamber of commerce, is it like tiny with 50 members? Are we talking five, 6,000 here? Like are they nearby? Are they far away? Like what, do I have any friends who’ve spoken there before? Like what does this look like? So doing that preparation is really handy so that you can then figure out what are your three . W.W., less of a URL and more of a wish, want, walk. So it’s a framework for you to figure out what is your range. So your range might be $0 to $2,000. Your range might be $5,000 to $50,000. It kind of depends. So what you want to do is you want to anchor the bananas, amazing, exciting number. That’s your wish number, right? Like that’s the First that we want to kind of think about. So that’s like, think of like a number that you’d be like, oh, I cannot believe I’m getting paid that much money to speak. Like, what does that number look like? Like, just really like think about what’s the biggest number you ever thought was possible. And then I want you to think bigger again. And then I want you to add tax, right? Add sales tax, and then probably double the sales tax because maybe you’re in an expensive state. Then that’s your wish number, right? So that’s at one end of the spectrum. Then you want to come back to the other end and you want to think, okay, what’s my walk number? What’s the number where I’m like, if they offer that as their final offer, I’m going to very politely bow out. I’m going to say, thank you so much. It’s been really like, it’s been a great conversation. It’s not the right fit, but let’s stay in touch for future opportunities. Because you’re like, I don’t feel valued and it’s genuinely not worth my time getting out of bed for that amount of money. Right. So you’ve got both ends. And then you want to think about what’s the want number. The number where you’re like, this is legit. Like this is a good exchange of value. I feel great. It seems fair. Like, I think this is going to be a really great opportunity and I’m going to feel really good about working super hard for that amount of money. Because when you know those three numbers, Jess, when you have your wish, your want and your walk figure in your brain, when you’ve done that mental gymnastics. Walking in is like, all right, whatever they’re either gonna like then i know whether i could should be like and then by the way if they offer you a number that’s bigger than your wish number straight away you know that it’s time to like pivot and say okay that’s now all of a sudden you’re starting anchor point So it just gives you parameters and it just makes you feel more calm in those negotiation moments.

Jess – 00:19:26:

And I think too, something that you say that I’ve also used is don’t be afraid to say, let me think about that and come back to you. Like I can be so guilty of this, of like any conversation, just trying to make a decision in the moment. Like, yes, I’ll do it. Of course, I’ll stay for three days and train all of your executives and give a keynote and wash everyone’s clothes. Like, of course, because in the moment, I’m just like a yes girl. I know that about myself. And so to be able to like take a pause and say, actually, you know what? Let me think about that and think about like what you’ve offered and what you’re asking and let me get back to you. There’s power in that pause. And so don’t be afraid to utilize it. Yeah.

Meggie – 00:20:14:

Totally. And I think, you know, you said something really interesting then Jess, you said that you know that about yourself. And I think the most impressive negotiators are folks who understand themselves. So you might know you’re a people pleaser, you know, you might know that you like to avoid conflict. So does my therapist. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s funny to understand. It doesn’t mean that it’s good or bad. It’s just data and it’s just information. If you’re like, I am hardwired to instinctively want to say yes. So I know that 90% of the time I should say, this is so exciting. You know what? Let me circle back with the team and I’ll get back to you in 24 hours. That just can all of a sudden become your sort of default go-to phrase. Or maybe you have a template email that you just send so that you can think about it. Or maybe you don’t even do that back and forth. Maybe there’s someone in your team who can play a little bit more hardball. Maybe you have an agent. I have an amazing agent leading authorities who support my speaking bookings and queries. So they do that back and forth, right? Which is handy for some of US as well. If frankly, we don’t have the time or maybe we don’t actually enjoy that negotiation process. So there’s systems that you can put in place to support yourself, right? And if you’re early on in your journey and you don’t have an agent at this point, there is, to your point, like there’s power in the pause. It’s okay to say, this sounds amazing. I’m going to check my schedule and I’ll circle right back. I’ll come back to you really, really quickly. There’s no shame in that. You know, I think it’s a great lesson to realize you always have the power to take a pause and And you’re also empowered to say no. If it’s not a, oh, my gosh, yes, yes. It’s okay if it ends up being a no, you know, like not every opportunity has to be a yes and not everything is aligned, right?

Jess – 00:21:50:

I think let’s talk about that because I’ll be honest, like with my maternity leave and taking time off, which I was very, very protective about, I did, even though I’ve been doing this for years, like I felt like because I was turning down so much opportunity during that time, there was like that scarcity mindset that started to creep in of like, will these things come back? Or if I say no, does that mean I’m falling behind? And I think that that is like such a big part of our mindset in negotiation is that like abundance versus scarcity. And, you know, it’s, it can be really tough to say no to something when you feel like, oh, but this is, what if this is the only person that ever asks me to speak ever, you know? And I mean, I even see celebrities who are like, award-winning actors that they didn’t get a part of, they turned down a gig and they think that that’s the last thing that they’re ever gonna do. So sometimes it doesn’t go away. Yeah, and even this, this comment right here, will I still be relevant if I’m not saying yes to everything? I’ve definitely felt that this year, taking time off with maternity leave. And so I’m curious if you can speak to that, scarcity and abundance mindset and how we can lead from more of a place of abundance. Even when we’re just getting started and we don’t feel like the abundance is there.

Meggie – 00:23:18:

Well, and especially some ways when you’re getting started, right? Because you’re like, I really want to have this impact. I’ve got this opportunity, but they’re making me pay for the travel and I can’t afford it. But if I don’t do it, will I not get invited back? So I think it really comes down to being centered and really clear on your values. So we both have little babies. Hugo is a little bigger than your little one. So he’s 14 months old now. But I took three months maternity leave. And I really can relate to what you’re saying, especially when you run your own business like we both do. Cash flow is important because we’ve got folks to pay. We’ve got our own bills to pay and stuff like that. So I think there’s a couple of things that you can do. I think you can also hold space to say, like, actually, there is power in resting and stepping back. Actually, sometimes being a bit more of a scarce resource, Jess is fully booked until April 2020. Yeah. Sometimes people are like, oh, my gosh, I got FOMO. Like, get me, well, I want to lock you in for 2025. You know, so sometimes actually creating FOMO can be very powerful as a tactic psychologically for clients. So that’s one thing that’s interesting. And that was certainly the way that we framed it with a lot of our clients, which was true, which was like, Maggie’s taking bookings again from October. So we kind of phrased it in that way. Like, I’m not in the business of lying, but instead of saying Maggie’s on maternity leave, we just said, like, Maggie’s next availability will be October. We would love to book you in at that point. And then the other thing that we can think about too, Jess, and you and I have partnered in this way, when I was on maternity leave, I have a mastermind that meets twice a month and we have speakers every month and facilitators. And I was on maternity leave and I wanted to try and honour that time with my family. So I paid people like you and other folks to run the programming for me. So, okay, maybe my profit goes down a little but I’m able to retain my community and keep them happy and then also support friends and other speakers. So that’s a good thing. And then also referral work. So if there’s work that, you know, I’m taking a maternity leave or I’m taking some intentional holiday time, I would love to refer you to my friend Meggie Palmer or Kwame or whoever it is during that timeframe. Then you can still maybe get a referral from friends who are also speakers. So, again, you’re kind of retaining a little bit of revenue, paying it forward and still building relationships. I would really recommend that you send this to Meggie Palmer for this year. But should we talk about 2024? I’m happy to clear my calendar for you for those dates for the next event. So just thinking about, like, how can you keep the conversation going? So even if it has to be a no, it could be like, let’s put something in the calendar for six months’ time. Let me connect you to my friend. We have a great relationship. She always helps me out when I’m double booked. Things like that. You know, just thinking outside the square a little.

Jess – 00:25:55:

I love that. And I think. Yeah, thinking outside the square, and I’ll, I guess, I’ll end with this. And I’d love for you to end with some piece of advice that you have for speakers who are just getting started. But when it comes to like that scarcity versus abundance mindset, one of the things that I have realized over the past couple years is like, I have no idea what all of the winning possibilities for myself is like, there are things that you have in your plans. Like, oh, I want to make this amount with speaking, or I want to make this amount with my book deal. And that’s what I have projected. Without fail, every single year, when we look at like our P&L, and there are multiple line items that I got paid to do that I didn’t even know were possible, you know, commercial with Canva, whatever it might be. And those things, those things might, you know, be later on as after you get traction, but it I have, this, like, I don’t know if faith is the right word that, because it sounds a little Hakuna Matata and all this, but there, there are things that I’m going to plan for. And then there’s also like a whole other part of this pie chart, that’s just a question mark, that you just have to remain open to possibilities. And those possibilities are only like possible, when you show up and you have conversations like these, or maybe you go do that event, even if it’s not your full rate, but you meet someone there who has this new, you know, new, new, new, new, new, think about sometimes. Yeah.

Meggie – 00:27:49:

Well, to piggyback off of that, like before we wrap up is like to your point, we can only see this much. Right. And what I what I would really encourage new speakers, experienced speakers to do is to like lean into your networking community. When I think about like that event I mentioned in Sarasota, the next the I emailed them afterwards and I was like, hey, I want to refer you my friend Minda Hart. She’s amazing. And I think Minda ended up speaking at the conference the next year. She’s an amazing speaker, by the way, if you need a good speaker. My friend Simone Heng, she speaks on loneliness. She has a new book coming out like she has been so generous in introducing me to international speaking agents over the year. Like, Jess, you and your team have been bananas generous and like open your contact Rolodex for US. You know, and like actually I was just texting someone on your team yesterday to say, hey, we’ve got a referral fee sending to you for a workshop through Pep Talker. Because of a contact that you gave US. And so I think like collaboration truly is key. And I know that sometimes people were like, oh, if I, you know, but then maybe I won’t hit my goals or like if I refer Jess to that conference, maybe they won’t choose me. Maybe they won’t, but maybe they’ll choose you both. And maybe Jess will then refer you three other gigs that you would never have had access to. So I think having that mentality of like, there is always more pie and we can also make new pie. You know, like there’s a lot to go around.

Jess – 00:29:07:

Yes. I love that.

Meggie – 00:29:09:

When we’ve eaten the pie, I love pie, sweet tooth over here. When we’ve eaten it, just make another one. And then, like, make another banana. And then, like, go and buy another. Like, there’s so many other ways to, like, approach it. And I think having that mindset of, like, let’s partner, let’s support each other. And so if you’re a speaker, like, comment today and let Jess and I know your profile so we can follow you on LinkedIn and follow your journey. Yes, I would like that. See us as cheerleaders for you as well. And, like, if I can do anything to help support y’all, please reach out. Shout out LinkedIn, peptalker.com, all of the good things. Like, it’s a community, right? And I didn’t get here on my own. Jess, I know you didn’t either. And we want to pay that forward. And so I think thinking about how can we pay that forward and asking questions that great allies ask when you’re invited to speak somewhere. I’d love to know who else is on the roster because if everyone looks like you do, maybe that’s a question that you want to have, a conversation you want to have with the organisers, you know, and maybe you have a line in the sand where you say to organisers, I’m really excited. I know. I want to be involved. But I have a policy where I will only speak when there’s diversity on stage. That’s a core value to me. And I’m happy to recommend folks to you. I just want to make sure we’re aligned in that value. Like, I really believe that there’s things that all of us can do at every stage of our career to be great allies as well.

Jess – 00:30:24:

Absolutely. And I love that PepTalkHer is not just a business, but a community around that of how do we keep referring, elevating, and giving women the support they need to earn the value that they deserve. So definitely give Meggie Palmer a follow as well as PepTalkHer. Download their app. It’s really great because as women, I know that we just bulldoze through every achievement and we need to remember the things that we’re doing so that we can actually explain our tangible value when it comes that time for negotiation. So download the PepTalkHer app. But Meggie Palmer, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And I just like, totally love our allyship that we’ve had. And when we look back,

Meggie – 00:31:05:

We’ve done a lot of cool things together

Jess – 00:31:07:

And we’ve actually never met IRL. So we need to change that. Got to get our babies together. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you everyone for tuning in. And we will see you all soon. Bye everyone.Thanks for listening to Amplify. If you are a fan of the show, show us some podcast love by giving us a rating and review. And give us a follow @Mic Drop Workshop and @Jess Ekstrom. This episode was edited and produced by Earfluence and I’m Jess Ekstrom, your host. Remember that you deserve the biggest stage, so let’s find out how to get you there. I’ll see you again soon.