Transcript

Kathryn Valentine: [00:00:00] I went through a phase where I loved coffee chats. Now I wanna be with my kids, right? Yeah. Um, and so I'm happy to have a conversation with you if there's, you know, a specific thing that I can help your audience with or your company with. Uh, but outside of that, I wanna be with these little people that I'm helping become hopefully really successful adults.

Jess Ekstrom: Welcome back to Amplify with the Jess Ekstrom, where we amplify your ideas, your influence, and your income. All righty. Welcome back everyone. Hello to all of our live viewers, including my mom. Hi. Hope the kids slept well for their nap. Uh, I'm so excited to be back here and on this show doing this live with my good friend Kathryn Valentine live.

Happy to be here. I know we can't. Drop any F bombs or say anything wrong. But, uh, by the way, just told me this was live four seconds ago. I know, I'm really sorry. I may have forgot, um, small detail, but one of my favorite things about you is that we met in like a really high stakes, high [00:01:00] pressure situation.

We met backstage at a TED Talk that we were both doing. Like the day before. Yeah. It wasn't a rehearsal thing. It was time to go. Yes. It was like showtime and when I saw your like bio and everything that you've done from Harvard Business Review to Wall Street Journal and you have clients like JP Morgan Chase and you were just like Absolutely out there crushing it, McKinsey, all these things.

I was so pleasantly surprised. To hear the first story in your TED Talk, which everyone needs to watch. Kathryn Valentine's, Ted Talk as well. Um, I don't even wanna spoil it. Will you just tell the story that you know, that I'm referring to to get us started? 

Kathryn Valentine: Oh yeah. That one. Yeah. So Jess is gonna start with the biggest failure.

Yep. Um, sure. So the first time I tried to negotiate, I was doing a. An MBA internship, which is like a job interview that lasts two months basically. And I had done really well. And so I was trying to negotiate to be placed on another team in attempts to get this [00:02:00] job. And I went in and had spent all weekend preparing, went in and had my negotiation and I.

Totally inadvertently ended up offending the person that I was negotiating with. And as a result, it just very quickly derailed to, you're not gonna, you're no longer a culture fit. Um, which we know means I wasn't gonna get that job. And then once you weren't gonna get the job, the internship doesn't make sense.

And once you don't have the internship, oh by the way, it's company protocol that this very large security officer is now going to escort you out of the building. And so my first negotiation attempt ended with me. On a sidewalk 

Jess Ekstrom: and like that sad box of all of my things. Like literally if you were gonna draw a comic strip of like bad day at work.

That's right. And just a puddle of your own tears. But then now you talk about negotiation. And you speak about it, but really what you speak about is not [00:03:00] negotiation, it's something else. What is it that people really need to know, especially women, like what is negotiation? Because we think it's a higher salary.

We think it's a promotion. We think it's money, which it could be, but what is it? And I love 

Kathryn Valentine: that you meant like it could be any of those things, but what it really is, is what do you want right now? Like what is your richest life look like? And negotiation is just a tool to get you to that. And it might be, it might be that salary, it might be that you've always wanted this particular number.

Okay? Sure. Mm-hmm. Depending on your phase of life and you know what's going on in your world, it might be time to care for, you know, I once negotiated time to care for my grandmother. Yeah. It might be that you wanna sit in on this really big meeting. Yeah. It might be that you want the company to pay for you, you know, an education or credibility.

It could be a ton of different things. Mm-hmm. And so negotiation is just the tool to allow you to have the life that you wanna have [00:04:00] 

Jess Ekstrom: and you have. In your keynote, which is phenomenal by the way. You talk about your rich life design rules and some of it you know is really practical. Like what is it that you want?

But then there's some things that I never really thought about before and it's a lot of like the different levers that we can pull in our life that aren't money that help create quote, this rich life design. And it would like. A really impactful moment was hearing you talking about visiting your grandparents and can you tell me that 

Kathryn Valentine: story?

Yeah, so when I was growing up, I was raised by a single mom and at that point in time in the town that we lived in, it wasn't very common to not have somebody at home. Mm-hmm. And so there was like no childcare for the summer. And so for the summer, my mother would put me on an airplane and ship me to South Texas where I would live with my.

76 and 78-year-old grandparents. And one of the things that was really funny [00:05:00] about that experience is that from a young age, what I saw wasn't the choices that we make in our twenties, thirties and forties. What I saw was the impact of those choices. Mm-hmm. In our seventies and eighties. Um. Where you chose to invest time, what you chose to prioritize and how that plays out.

And that was a lot of the rich life design part, which is not, especially now when we have all these messages being sent to us about what we're supposed to love or do or buy or spend our time. Mm-hmm. It's not. It's clearing out that noise and thinking about who you are and what you want and how to get that.

Mm-hmm. 

Jess Ekstrom: And you gave so many examples when you were talking about that summer with your grandparents of like the choices that we make in our twenties, thirties, forties, and how that impacts you. In your eighties or nineties, where it's like the partner that you choose, the health prioritization that you choose, where you chose to put [00:06:00] your time, your money, whether you made a five o'clock martini, you know, a habit versus a chamomile tea.

Not to say either one was right or wrong, but like how that repetition pays off or doesn't pay off over time. And I thought that was so interesting to think about what is your greatest currency, and that might not be money. So what are the other kinds of currencies out there and what's more important to you right now in this phase of your life?

Well, I love that 

Kathryn Valentine: question right now, right? So the currencies are money, their credibility. Their time. Um, for a lot of people it's things. Mm-hmm. So, you know, money could be in the bank, or money could be spent on these, certain things could be experiences, any of those. Mm-hmm. Make sense. And there's probably a ton more that I didn't list there, but it's what one matters to you right now?

So, in this season? Yeah. Yeah. So 10 years ago, my biggest currency was title. Mm-hmm. And then it became money, and now it's [00:07:00] time. And I don't know how long it will be time. I mean, we've talked a lot about what time means to me. I don't know how long it will be that I don't know if it'll change again, but once you know what that currency is, then you get to make the rules around how you're going to bring more of that into your life.

Jess Ekstrom: And you also talk a lot about like. Choice and autonomy. And one of the things I also love that when you talk about choice and autonomy, you talk about privilege too, which I think is really great for thought leaders to recognize when we're like, all you have to do is just get up and work. And it's like, well, we're not all getting up in the same house.

We're not all getting up with the same like education or the same household. So I love that you preface that, but like, what does it mean? Um. To choose your ideal life design, your rich life design, because a lot of us think or truly believe that like. This is the job that I have, or this is the, this is the cards that I'm dealt.

You know, how do I change, how do I [00:08:00] adjust? 

Kathryn Valentine: Well, and the cards that you're dealt are important and we need to acknowledge that. That also in many ways, changes over time. That might change because of a macro thing that happened like a global pandemic. It might change because of a micro thing that happened.

Like, um, I don't know. You invested in Bitcoin eight years ago. Who knows? Right? And I think a lot of it is about I clearing all of that out. Yeah. And also clearing out, I think sometimes some old visions of what you thought your life was gonna be or should be. Letting some of that go. 

Jess Ekstrom: Hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: And thinking about what you want it to be right now.

Jess Ekstrom: Yeah. I remember like 10 years ago, I could probably find my application for like Survivor or The Amazing Race and like, I wanna be on a reality show and do this. I could not think of anything I wanna do less today mm-hmm. Than be on a reality show. I will watch the reality show, but I will not be on it.[00:09:00] 

And so it just shows like how the, like what was so important to us at this point in our life, like I could care less about right 

Kathryn Valentine: now. I mean, 10 years ago I did this like bungee jumping thing and now I can't look out a third story window without shaking. I hate heights. Right. Like, what was 

Jess Ekstrom: I thinking?

Yeah. But it's what? It's, well, we were just talking about someone on the team here whose shoe was untied, and I was like, will you please tie your shoe? And you were like, did you notice people's shoes untied before becoming a mom? And I did not. I could not care. I was not looking at if your shoe was untied and you were gonna trip and hit your head, so how did, but now it reduces anxiety.

Tie your shoe before we go live. How did becoming a mom change your. The way you think about work the way, change the way you think about your rich life design. 

Kathryn Valentine: I love this question, but I wanna preface that I'm answering it only for me. Mm-hmm. [00:10:00] There is a little bit of like the mommy wars that I hope are over now.

Yeah. Um, this is, no, everyone gets to choose for themselves. For me, I was raised by a single mom who wanted to be around more than she could. Mm-hmm. That was not, it was not in the cards for us then. 

Jess Ekstrom: Yeah. 

Kathryn Valentine: And so for me, a lot of it is being very intentional about. How I spend my time, where I make my money and, and you know, to a certain extent how much money I actually need.

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: Uh, so that I can spend as much time as I can with my children. That is for me right now. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: That, that might change in five years, and that doesn't have to be for anybody else. Yeah. But I think.

When I am coaching people on negotiation, a lot of people think it's the tactics of negotiation. Like that's where it is and that's what I love and that's where the research is. And we can absolutely talk about how to be successful in your negotiation. But what I find is that the power of negotiation comes before that.

It's in [00:11:00] what do you wanna negotiate for? 99% of the people who used to who come to me for coaching say, I wanna negotiate a raise. But when you really push underneath that, it's not the raise they want. It might be the promotion. Mm-hmm. It might be the credibility, it might be the respect, it might be the thing the raise is going to buy.

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: But the paths to those are all different. Right. I mean, if when I say why someone says, 'cause I wanna make as much money as I can, that's my currency right now, the answer to that is, well actually, you don't wanna negotiate a raise. We know from Claudia Golden who won the Nobel Prize, you wanna negotiate a promotion.

Jess Ekstrom: Hmm. Because a 

Kathryn Valentine: promotion is actually going to increase your financial over the long haul. Much more. So if what you really want is money, then let's negotiate a promotion. Mm. If what you really want is credibility, then we need to think about what your title is. Mm-hmm. And your title might be different externally.

If what you really want is autonomy, then we need to think about how your role is crafted. There's all kinds of different things that we can do. Once you get [00:12:00] underneath that, what is it that you really want? 

Jess Ekstrom: How does one get underneath that? Because sometimes I find myself chasing something. That I realize is someone else's dream.

Mm-hmm. And I get it and I'm like, oh, I didn't really want this. I just had fomo. Like I just thought that because I'm a speaker or because I'm doing this, then that means I should be doing that. So how do you really know what you want and what is comparison telling you that you want. 

Kathryn Valentine: One, I think that many people have people or places that are a touchstone, and it's knowing what your touchstone is.

Is it a, um, quiet afternoon hiking? Is it a conversation with your best friend from second grade? Mm-hmm. Is it, um, a weekend with your parents and the house you grew up in? You know, what is your touchstone? But then from that, when you've connected with that thing that. You know, allows you to feel like you're your truest self.

The question that I really like to ask [00:13:00] is, if I had a magic wand and I gave it to you 

Jess Ekstrom: mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: What would your life look like in a year? 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm. 

Kathryn Valentine: And what I find with that question is, so, and I'm a research nerd. Yeah, but the most, one of the most interesting studies I reviewed was, uh, two researchers who brought children into the lab, gave them a coloring page, the children colored it.

And when the children brought it back up to the researcher, the researcher says, what do I owe you? And what they found is that little girls were asking for 40% less than little boys at the age of eight, which means that before our children. Like know that the tooth fairy isn't real. Right? The little girls know that there's something about negotiating that is scary.

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: And what I like about the magic wand question is it sort of strips away some of those, um. Societal concepts of what we're supposed to want or supposed to ask for and allows it to be your world again. Uh, we found in the research. Another way to do that is to say, if you were advising a friend with your identical experience and [00:14:00] background, what would you say they should ask for?

Oh, that's fascinating because. Fight for my friends all day long. Yeah, exactly. And so what we find is that when women are asked to estimate their own market value, we tend to underestimate ourselves between 20 and 40%, quite significantly. Mm-hmm. But when we estimate someone else's market value, we are almost spot on.

Jess Ekstrom: Oh my gosh. 

Kathryn Valentine: And so if we can strip away that. That feeling of self and kind of assign it to a friend. Yeah. All of a sudden you can start to get a little bit closer to what the truth might be. 

Jess Ekstrom: I had, you know, in my drop workshop, obviously we help women get paid speaking gigs and it is fascinating to me where these women come into our program with like loads of experience or just have started something or written a book and they're like, do you think I can ask for $500?

And I'm like. Add another zero and double it. Yeah. And they are, I mean, just like can't even hit send on the invoice [00:15:00] or the email. And I'm like, I see. And no offense to any of the men in this room right now, but like I, when I am on stages, and I know that you see this, I see so many men up there that are not ranking as high as the women speakers, but like.

Charging 2030 K and not even feeling any sort of mental gymnastics around it whatsoever. 

Kathryn Valentine: And I think good for the guys, right? Like this is not an anti great job. Yeah. 

Jess Ekstrom: Something you said before. Now let's get the women where we're you can be pro women without being anti-men. Yeah. And I love that because it's like, yeah, there's nothing, when I found out that I was at an event that I got paid.

$8,500 to speak. And then I found out that the man who was speaking there got paid $50,000. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I, instead of being like, who do you think you are? I wanted to be like, can I get you coffee? And Yeah, tell me a little bit about how you did [00:16:00] this. Yeah. How did you do that? And so what is it? But the thing that I really like that you do is that.

It's not a copy paste what men do to get the 50 K and what women do. It's different, uh. Different research. So can you shed light into that? 

Kathryn Valentine: Sure. So the three strategies that we talk a lot about on women in negotiating is to think holistically, ask relationally and discuss collaboratively. Do you want me to kind of tell you?

Yeah. Do you write that down or, sure. On think holistically. Uh, what is your overarching goal to your point, like what is your currency? And then from there, what can you, uh, ask for that helps you reach that? And we have this list of 76 things that we've seen women ask for. We'll put it in the show notes.

Yes, thank you. That are all kinds of different and creative ways. A lot, plenty of them are compensation, but plenty of them aren't because our life is multidimensional. Mm-hmm. So one think holistically, two ask relationally, and this is actually what my Ted X talk was on where I met you. Mm-hmm. [00:17:00] Um, which is that the research on this shows that if women ask relationally, we are significantly more likely to be successful.

And we virtually eliminate the risk of backlash, which means that, you know, when you were talking about the woman who couldn't hit send on things mm-hmm. Part of what was driving her is the fear of hearing no. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. I 

Kathryn Valentine: wanna remove that fear by showing you a way to ask where no. Just becomes a piece of information.

Yes. That it's not, there's no, um, real cost to it. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: And we have a formula to that, which is your past performance plus the future vision, plus your ask and then stop talking. Mm-hmm. Because we found that women are so great, they'll just keep talking Totally. To make their negotiation partner feel better.

So number one, think holistically. Number two, ask relationally. And then number three, discuss collaboratively. So, mm-hmm. So we tend to go into negotiations with this sort of, um, you versus me mindset. But if we can flip it to an us versus the problem mindset mm-hmm. Then all of a sudden we can chat about what helps us [00:18:00] get to that, uh, the best.

And in any negotiation, I have information you don't have and you have information I don't have. And so if we can make it a collaborative discussion and get that information on the table, we will reach a better outcome for both of us instead, instead of thinking of it as conflict. 

Jess Ekstrom: Yes. One of the things that you said is, um.

About the, no, I wanna circle back to that because I think what I see at Mic Drop Workshop, a lot of women won't apply for the TED Talk or won't. Like, they'll, they'll, uh, submit for the breakout, but not the keynote because they're like, I just don't think I am qualified yet. I'm not ready. But you have an interesting take on hearing.

No. Tell me about it. 

Kathryn Valentine: I like 

Jess Ekstrom: to hear No. Why, 

Kathryn Valentine: and this is sort of, this is kind of next level. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: Um, but I like to hear No, because that means that I have reached the top of what you're willing to give. Mm-hmm. And now we're gonna back it down to where we both feel comfortable. Mm-hmm. The thing about no is it is a key [00:19:00] to more information because there's now a time delay on the decision.

So, for example, um, you're my boss. Mm-hmm. And I come to you and I ask to be promoted, and you say, uh, Kathryn, you're not qualified for that right now. 

Jess Ekstrom: Okay. 

Kathryn Valentine: I understand that I'm not qualified for that right now. Can you tell me what I would need to do to demonstrate that I am qualified for it the next time the opportunity comes around?

Mm-hmm. And so now you are gonna, I mean, you're, I'm not, there's no promotion happening right now. Mm-hmm. The stakes are very low at this point. And so you're gonna say, well, in order for you to be qualified, you're gonna need to show X, Y, and Z. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: You've now given me. The exact, I mean, it's like going back to school.

You've now given me the exact rubric of the three things I need to go do. Mm-hmm. So that next time I'm gonna get a yes from you. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: So as long as I document those, deliver those, and let you know I delivered those, the next negotiation is sort of a predetermined conversation, which is exactly what we want them to be.

Do you ever have 

Jess Ekstrom: women [00:20:00] like myself that, uh, maybe back down in those situations for fear of being annoying? 

Kathryn Valentine: Yes. Um, the term we like to use, which is not my term, but the one we use at the office, is we want to be relentlessly pleasant. Okay? And so I am, but 

Jess Ekstrom: don't you, aren't you also just like a guy would never worry about this, what specifically would the guy not worry about like coming across as.

Too persistent or coming across as, um, too eager. 

Kathryn Valentine: You know, I've kind of wondered about that, and I don't, I, I love the research. I don't have any research on this. I think what you're saying might be true for a ton of men in their fifties. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: But when I look now at. My husband and it my sons. Mm-hmm.

What I see is that the world has evolved from hierarchical to much more collaborative, and so my sons are also much more [00:21:00] aware of how other people feel about them and if they're hurting feelings and if people are included. And I wonder if there's an evolution where the way women. Are incentivized to negotiate now actually becomes the way we all need to negotiate in 10 or 20 years.

Interesting. Because I have, I mean, have you seen men start to get iced out? 'cause they're a little too aggressive. Mm-hmm. I have too. Yeah. And so I do feel like there's this talk track, especially when I started doing this research 10 years ago of like, oh, just think like a man. But I think the way men, like men are evolving so rapidly too.

Mm-hmm. I, uh, I don't, I don't know that I see that as much as I 

Jess Ekstrom: maybe used to. Well, and I see it in public speaking. One of the reasons why we do what we do and why we started like Mic Drop Club, these performance based programs is because historically speaking, um. Speaking [00:22:00] practice and speaking skills are very masculine.

Yeah. Even we've had women that come in that say, well, my boss said I need to like lower my voice, like actually change my tone to be perceived more seriously. And I think you're right that hopefully that is. Aging out. Uh, but it is still this going back to just like the, um, feeling like, am am I gonna be annoying if I press, even if I don't get a speaking opportunity?

It's like if I follow up is that, you know, am I being, even though I know that that works, I've gotten so many bus, so much business from following up. How do you get past that? It's not even imposter syndrome. It's like, um. Just not wanting to come across as too Well, I think sometimes you can call it out.

Yeah. 

Kathryn Valentine: Like, Hey, I don't wanna be annoying to you, but I really respect your organization. I would love to be on your stage one day. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: Can you let me know what I would need to do so that you know, this time next year when your conference happens, I might be a good match? 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm. 

Kathryn Valentine: I, I, you know, we don't follow up [00:23:00] 15 times.

Right. Um. But I think we can follow up a few. Yeah. And I actually, one piece of advice I took from one of the podcasts that you did in the past was on the second or third follow up. Um, the one that I work with now on this says, Hey, just wanted to see if you need anything. This will be my last follow up.

Jess Ekstrom: Mm. And 

Kathryn Valentine: we get a ton of responses to that because everyone's busy and they didn't, most of the time they didn't not follow up because it wasn't important. They didn't follow up because someone got sick. There was a fire at work. Right. They were actually executing an event. There was a, you know. Any number of things.

Jess Ekstrom: Yeah. And I think that's something that I can do more is like, I think when I don't hear something or it's like, well, they must not like me, they don't wanna hire me. But it's like assume good intent, assume that they have something else going on. And I feel like that's probably what a lot of this like communication around negotiation is, is like what is the best intention that they want?

Is, am I getting warm? 

Kathryn Valentine: Yes. Uh, the other thing, just because you mentioned voice, um, after the TEDx that we [00:24:00] did together mm-hmm. One of the emails that I got within 24 hours was, loved your talk. If you wanna be taken seriously, you need a voice coach? No. Here's the person I would reach out to. And the email was incredibly well intentioned.

I really like the person who sent that note. I respect her a lot. Oh, you, you know them. She's a very famous professor. I respect her a lot. It's not gonna be my top priority right now because I, is she wrong? Absolutely not. She's probably right. But of all the things that I could do to help women. Changing my voice isn't, isn't one of 'em.

It's, it's not a top priority. You know, getting on more stages to bring these tools to more women, that's a priority. Mm-hmm. I don't think that I have to change my voice to do it yet. Um, there might be a point in time, let's imagine a world where I've talked to 99% of the women in, you know, in the United States.

Maybe then, but 

Jess Ekstrom: I dunno, that is fascinating. But you seem to be someone who can. Roll with it. That might have [00:25:00] derailed me. How do you, um, you have like fought with the best at like McKinsey, you turned down Harvard and Yale and like all these things, like how are you so. Levelheaded in these kind of, you fail a bunch.

Yeah. And you 

Kathryn Valentine: realize that it's okay because you failed a bunch. Yeah. I didn't get the McKenzie thing the first or the second time I tried. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I almost ne I've almost just, I don't know that I can come up with very many examples of things that I've wanted, that I've gotten the first time I tried.

Jess Ekstrom: Hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: But I've gotten a lot of them. The third or fourth time 

Jess Ekstrom: I tried. 

Kathryn Valentine: Yeah. 

Jess Ekstrom: I think one of the things that I also love about you after hearing you speak is this question that you asked yourself, both when you were deciding to go to UVA, and also when it was time to turn the page in your career. You looked around and asked yourself, do people seem happy?[00:26:00] 

And I think that that is like such a catalyst for the work that you do today. A lot of people think that it's around negotiation and salary, but it is about like creating the life design path that works best for you. What, um, someone who, no matter where they're at in their career, maybe they're like knee deep, maybe they're just getting started.

Uh, what are some things or questions that someone could ask themselves to start to build their rich life design? 

Kathryn Valentine: I love the magic wand question. Mm-hmm. But I think another question is like looking at it over the course of your life. I mean, one of the reasons why I get to prioritize time right now is because I prioritized money in my twenties and I got lucky.

Like I graduated in, waited in 2008. Anything that I was able to save, you know, stock market was what, mm-hmm. Worth a third. What it like, anything I was able to save has done really well since then. Mm-hmm. Um. You know, I think one thing, as much as I love, and I'm a huge proponent of [00:27:00] negotiation, luck plays a much bigger role than most people wanna acknowledge.

Jess Ekstrom: Yeah. 

Kathryn Valentine: And so I think thinking about. One, what do you want your life to look like? Two, what does that mean right now? And then three, just acknowledging that we can take the actions, but we can't always control the outcome. And so what actions, when you go to bed at night, are you going to feel glad that you did?

Right? You started your own company? Yeah. That's a lot riskier than going to work at some company that you know, is gonna be a pretty steady paycheck. 

Jess Ekstrom: Mm-hmm. 

Kathryn Valentine: In both of those instances though, your personality type is one that's gonna work a lot. 

Jess Ekstrom: Yeah. 

Kathryn Valentine: So at the end of the day when you fall into bed exhausted, is it exhausted that you feel good about, or one that you always kind of questioned?

Jess Ekstrom: It is so funny, like the good exhaustion is building something I love or. I'm chasing around my toddler or even like the sleepless nights with kids. I'm like, I'll take it. I know it's [00:28:00] temporary. I know it's like gonna be fleeting, but then there's the bad exhaustion of like chasing something that I don't really love or putting out fires at work.

And so like recognizing the good exhaustion is a really great way to look at your output. 

Kathryn Valentine: And I think recognizing when you have that feeling and just noting it down, like I have that feeling when I have coffee chats. Yeah. Just because, mm-hmm. I went through a phase where I loved coffee chats. Now I wanna be with my kids, right?

Yeah. Um, and so I'm happy to have a conversation with you if there's, you know, a specific thing that I can help your audience with or your company with. Uh, but outside of that, I wanna be with these little people that I'm helping become hopefully really successful adults. 

Jess Ekstrom: Same thing where I've had a really tough time.

Being able to say no without a reason other than spending time with, it's not like, oh no, I'm speaking at a conference that day. It's like, no, [00:29:00] it's my time. You know it, it's not up for grabs anymore. I think it's really 

Kathryn Valentine: hard for people who are ambitious. Yeah. I mean, I was used to working a gajillion hours and sleeping under my desk and all the things.

Mm-hmm. And now realizing that. If I'm not gonna be spending time with my kids, I either need to get a ton of enjoyment out of it or I need to be getting paid for it. Yeah, hundred percent. 'cause these little people are my legacy. 

Jess Ekstrom: Kathryn, thank you so much. Give Kathryn Valentine a follow on LinkedIn.

Book her to speak at your next event. Anywhere else people can find you. 

Kathryn Valentine: Oh, if that list of 76 things you can negotiate would be helpful. Yeah, you can get it@seventysixthings.com. Perfect. 

Jess Ekstrom: Thank you.

Thanks for listening to Amplify. If you're a fan of the show, show us some podcast love by giving us a rating and review. This episode is brought to you by Mic Drop Workshop, where you can learn how to become a better [00:30:00] speaker, how to land paid speaking gigs, and become a keynote speaker. This episode was edited and produced by Walk West.

I'm Jess, reminding you that you deserve the biggest stage, so let's find out how to get you there. I'll see you again soon.